Sunday, April 26, 2015

Why There's Nothing "Extraordinary" In Claims Of GMO/Pesticide harm



“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

No shit, Sherlock?  This saying of Marcelo Truzzi has become a mantra for GMO advocates, to be used reflexively whenever anyone produces a substantive piece of empirical anti-GMO evidence.  And at first blush it sounds like a no-brainer.   OF COURSE extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence!  And so far as I know, no-one has tried to deconstruct the adage.

Specifically, nobody seems to have pointed out the presupposition in the minor premise—that any claim of actual or potential damage from GMOs is of its very nature an extraordinary claim.  It is a presupposition devoid of any rational support.  Indeed ignoring this fact invokes another well-known adage: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

The rationale for believing that claims of harm from GMOs are “extraordinary” lies in repeated statements by both government bodies and scientific organizations that GMOs are “safe”.  People apparently cannot remember that DDT, cigarette smoking, thalidomide, diethylstilbestrol and Agent Orange were all declared to be safe, often by the same organizations that have declared GMOs and the spraying of herbicide resistant plants to be safe--e.g. the FDA, which has consistently approved these, also approved thalidomide (1941) and diethylstilbestrol (1947).   The company that made Agent Orange, Monsanto, is the company that pioneered the use of glyphosate and that originally manufactured Agent Orange, whose supposedly less lethal component, 2, 4D, is now allowed to be used on pesticide-resistant crops produced by Dow AgroSciences.  And bear in mind that only two of the five cases noted (DDT, Agent Orange) involved substances that, like GMO pesticides, were actually intended to destroy living organisms.

I’ve had personal experiences with three of these cases, so I remember.  I smoked until I was forty, as a direct result of which I have severe emphysema, and several members of my wife’s family died from smoking-related conditions; they were all lifelong, heavy smokers.  I remember having a violent argument with an old friend, a well-known and highly respected geneticist, who swore by all that was holy that Agent Orange did no harm to humans; she, with all her credentials, was wrong, and I was right.  My beloved mother-in-law was killed in less than two years by doctors who, believing in the FDA’s assurance that diethylstilbestrol was appropriate for the treatment of menopausal symptoms, prescribed it and gave her cervical cancer.

If we look beyond the bland reassurances of industrial and government organizations, we see that the scientific work supposed to guarantee the safety of GMOs and pesticides is hopelessly out-of-date and unreliable.  The mantra on which such studies are based is, of course, “The dose makes the poison”, a doctrine originated by a sixteenth-century alchemist and astrologer.  How people who consider themselves scientists and regard their opponents as unscientific or actively anti-science can embrace a six-hundred-year old doctrine by a practitioner of two pseudo-sciences is a total mystery to me.  Do they also believe in Ptolemaic epicycles, the four humors, spontaneous generation?  That would be logical, since these equally formed part of cutting-edge sixteenth-century science.

The only reason for continuing to believe that “the dose makes the poison” is that this piece of pseudo-science supports the pro-GMO case and the real science doesn’t.  For what real scientists think, here’s the Endocrine Society’s take on it:

“Over the last two decades there has been burgeoning scientific evidence based on
field research in wildlife species, epidemiological data on humans, and laboratory
research with cell cultures and animal models that provides insights into
how EDCs cause biological changes, and how that may lead to disease. However,
endocrinologists now believe that a shift away from traditional toxicity
testing is needed. The prevailing dogma applied to chemical risk assessment is
that “the dose makes the poison.” These testing protocols are based on the idea
that there is always a simple, linear relationship between dose and toxicity, with
higher doses being more toxic, and lower doses less toxic. This strategy is used
to establish a dose below which a chemical is considered “safe,” and experiments
are conducted to determine that threshold for safety. Traditional testing involves
chemicals being tested one at a time on adult animals, and they are presumed
safe if they did not result in cancer or death.

“A paradigm shift away from this dogma is required in order to assess fully the
impact of EDCs and to protect human health. Like natural hormones, EDCs
exist in the body in combination due to prolonged or continual environmental
exposures. Also like natural hormones, EDCs have effects at extremely low doses
(typically in the part-per-trillion to part-per-billion range) to regulate bodily
functions. This concept is particularly important in considering that exposures
start in the womb and continue throughout the life cycle. A new type of testing is
needed in order to reflect that EDCs impact human health even at the low levels
encountered in everyday life."

And who or what is the Endocrine Society?  Some soft-on-science, anti-vaccine activist group, doubtless?  Well, as a matter of fact, no.


The Endocrine Society is a professional, international medical organization in the field of  endocrinology and metabolism founded in 1916 as The Association for the Study of Internal Secretions. The official name of the organization was changed to The Endocrine Society on January 1, 1952. It is a leading organization in the field and publishes four leading journals. It has more than 17,000 members from over 100 countries in medicine, molecular and cellular biology, biochemistry, physiology, genetics, immunology, education, industry and allied health. The Society's mission is: ‘to advance excellence in endocrinology and promote its essential and integrative role in scientific discovery, medical practice, and human health’.  It is said to be ‘the world's oldest, largest and most active organization devoted to research on hormones and the clinical practice of endocrinology.’”

So, to sum up: the GMO/pesticide nexus is just one of a series of cases within the last century where not only scientists but government agencies tasked with consumer protection have assured us certain products were safe until mounting death-tolls proved to everyone that they were wrong.  Now one of the world’s largest organizations in the relevant scientific fields has demonstrated that the grounds on which the “safety” of GMOs and their associated pesticide use are invalid.  Endocrine-disruptor doses “in the part-per-trillion to part-per-billion range” are unavoidable when “an estimated 85 percent of all food consumed in the United States now contains genetically modified organisms”.  For many pesticides used routinely on GMO crops, including what is by far the commonest, glyphosate, are endocrine disruptors.

Now can you please explain to me exactly how and why the claim that GMOs and pesticides may be damaging to our health is an extraordinary claim?

Because of course it is NOT an extraordinary claim.  In light of both the regulatory history of recent decades and the latest scientific findings in the most relevant field, it is, to the contrary, an extraordinarily ordinary claim.  And ordinary claims require only ordinary evidence—nothing more.  Like the kind of epidemiological evidence that blew the whistle on the smoking-lung cancer link.  Like the epidemiological evidence in Swanson et al., against which I am still waiting to hear a single substantive negative argument.

12 comments:

  1. 1.) The contrary evidence you claim is not really a GMO issue. It's a pesticide issue.

    2.) This is a total strawman. Nobody would make a blanket statement that ANY evidence that would link GMO or pesticides to harm requires extraordinary evidence. It's just the low-quality junk that the activist crews put out often contain specific claims that would require extrodinary evidence. Pig fetuses that where glyphosate accumulates in the liver, when this is KNOWN not to happen - that's pretty extraordinary. That specific claim requires some solid proof.

    Activists use this as a technique. It's not particularly extraordinary to most people to claim that a pesticide would cause disease. But if a big part of your proof is an unbelievable finding that is not well backed, then the claim looks very bogus, but at face value to the media it looks very plausible.

    3.) I'm not sure you're actually reflecting the Endocrine Society's stance accurately. They consider it an EDC. Stating that they consider it to be an EDC doesn't really mean that there is a lot, if any weight behind it actually being one. They clearly take a pretty conservative approach to what may be EDC's, and if they haven't called it out as a known endocrine disruptor, then it's fair to say that the jury is still out. Doesn't make them or you wrong - it very well may turn out to be an EDC - but the claim that the "latest findings in the most relevant field..." is not substantiated. Maybe "the latest opinion of scientists in the most relavant field..."

    4.) You've zeroed in on a handful of examples where regulators and scientsts were wrong about a substance's safety. But, you ignore the vastly larger number of times that they've been exactly correct. You seem to be making the point that regulatory and scientific agreement on safety is not a sure thing - okay. But by your standard, regulatory and scientific agreement is also a positive indicator of a substances actual safety - just not aboslute proof. You've implied the opposite of the point you were making without even realizing it.

    5.) It's tough to argue substantively against something lacking substance. If you don't care for the statistical argument that R^2 values aren't really that meaningful when you go out correlating pairs of variables, then I don't know what to tell you. The organic food vs. autism graph that you write off is meant to show that a close correlation can be drawn between unrelated

    Where's the lag in the Swanson graphs? The correlations seem to lack the offset I would expect. Are we to believe that these degenerative chronic ailments IMMEDIATELY rise as soon in the same year a bump in glyphosate use occurs? That would barely make sense for acute toxic effects, but it makes no sense in chronic disease where you almost never see immediate effects for year. Perhaps it's accounted for, I've never seen the explanation.

    ReplyDelete
  2. 1) Only GMO crops can be safely sprayed with pesticide, so it's a GMO issue.
    2) I've seen it used on work at all levels, so no straw man.
    3) The mean THEY (and so far only they) have decided it's an EDC. And who can better determine this than them? They would only say "known" if there was general agreement that it was an EDC. If you don't believe me, ask them.
    4) My point was only that a consensus proves nothing. So where's the contradiction?
    5) S & co are not correlating pairs of variables. They're correlating two related variables with more than a dozen others, and the result is almost identical in all of them. If you don't think this is significant, you're saying statistics is a rubbish science.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 1.) according to you, in your previous blog entry, this is not true. Not sure how you are arguing both ways without realizing it.

      2.) You can beat up the worst arguments all you like. If somebody made the argument as a broadbrush, then they are wrong. But it is not the common argument, and focusing on how the uninformed minority of GMO proponents may say simply detracts from the real issues that the majority are claiming. But you're not fighting the hard facts, you're beating up the easy targets.

      3.) They don't seem to have published anythign besides the passing comment that you posted. I can't find it. If you have evidence present it. Saying "go ask them" does in fact constitute a logical fallacy. You are making a claim, and not backing it up, then forcing your opponent to try to disprove it.

      4.) Who ever said that anybody has ever been 100% right? That's what it would take for a concensus to ever prove anything. So who cares? Your point looked a lot more like "those whacks fake data and approve dangerous things all the time - so you can't trust them" When the reality is the opposite.

      5.) They actually leave out the second independent variable quite a bit. Why do they use GMO corn sometimes, Glyphosate applied sometimes, and sometimes they only include RR soybeans...They SHOULD plot everything they have. It looks like that sometimes you can only correlate a disease to one of the independent variables. But since they don't discuss it, who knows? It doesn't matter. All should be on EVERY plot. This is substantive criticism of the work. This alone would prevent it from meeting the publication threshold of real journals, which the one it was published in is not.

      Delete
  3. http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/1424185/eib124.pdf

    Pesticide use on crops 1960-2008

    Peak use - 1980

    First HT crop - released 1994/5

    "1) Only GMO crops can be safely sprayed with pesticide, so it's a GMO issue."

    Absolute nonsense.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not nonsense--I inadvertently did what pro-GMO folk do constantly, which is play the shell game with the words "herbicide", "insecticide" and "pesticide". Of course what I meant was "herbicide". And you can take that to the bank. Or try spraying your roses with Round-Up.

      Delete
    2. So your corrected statement is "Only GMO crops can be safely sprayed with herbicide, so it's a GMO issue." Is that right? I would suggest you look up a material called bromoxynil octanoate to start with. That's only one of dozens, but I think you'll get the idea. My point is simply that many selective herbicides can be safely sprayed on crops.

      Delete
    3. Okay, carelessness on my part--I'm well aware of selective herbicides, I used one last week against the nutsedge in my lawn, I just forgot them. But that's hardly surprising, is it? Because nitpicky little trivialities like this are totally irrelevant to any of the really important issues I'm dealing with. How many crops have engineered resistance to a selective herbicide? I suspect none. What percentage of selective herbicide is sprayed as compared to glyphosate? I suspect in the very low single digits, if that. GMOers would do anything rather than grapple with the hard stuff.

      Delete
  4. Problematically enough though Derek, I took what you said to the bank, and the check bounced.

    My banker pointed me to the NASS herbicide use statistics, so I went out there to check....

    Herbicide use on corn in the years prior to HT corn (1998 being year of release)

    1994 - 170,221,000 lbs
    1995 - 167,642,000 lbs
    1996 - 186,977,000 lbs
    1997 - 164,051,000 lbs
    1998 - 177,012000 lbs

    then, some years after widespread GR adoption....

    2003 - 149,136,000 lbs
    2005 - 157,575,000 lbs
    2010 - 182,150,000 lbs

    Not one of the pre-years could be considered a single low digit percentage of any of the latter years, it'd be pretty shaky to claim that the numbers are actually meaningfully impacted (my educated guess would be that mostly the numbers reflect acreage (the 1990s had about 20 million acres less corn than the 2000s on average.

    If one looks at individual herbicide use on corn you can see glyphosate go from around 2,350,000 pounds use pre HT corn to 57,536,000 in 2010 (which is the only year in which glyphosate was the nr 1 applied herbicide to corn interestingly) this occurs with a concurrent disappearance of metolachlor and cyanazine (although s-metolachlor seems to replace metolachlor rather than there being a displacement by glyphosate). By 2010 4 herbicides dominate corn - glyphosate, atrazine, acetochlor and s-metolachlor. each having more than 20 million pounds applied. (glyphosate accounts for 31% of total herbicide applied to corn in 2010, which hardly leaves other selective herbicides at figures in the low single digits (100-31 !<10)

    The story shifts a little with soybeans. Here I have numbers from 1990 through 2012 (although for some reason the NASS doesnt give totals until 1994 irritatingly... luckily though I can just do that myself....

    1990 - 74,310,000 pounds
    1991 - 63,094,000 pounds
    1994 - 49,258,000 pounds
    1995 - 56,098,000 pounds
    1996 (HT soy available) - 59,542,000 pounds
    1997 - 78,182,000 pounds
    2006 - 103,560,000 pounds
    2012 - 132,655,000 pounds

    Here we see that glyphosate clearly increased in use across the time period covered and there is a near twofold increase in pounds of herbicide applied to soybeans (a combination of requiring more active ingredient per acre to control weeds, as well as more acres in production)

    On an individual herbicide level one can see a near annihilation of all competing herbicides. in 1995 the top 3 herbicides in use were

    Pendimethalin 12,930,000 lbs
    Trifluralin 8,329,000 lbs
    Metolachlor 6,995,000 lbs

    By 2004 each of these were under 3,500,000 lbs

    During the period of glyphosate resistant crop dominance you see use of other herbicides drop from 15 - 27 million pounds (min/max 1990-1995) down to 2.9-5 million pounds (2001-2005) with an uptick in 2-4D use from 2005 to 2012 increasing non glyphosate herbicide use up to 11.3 million pounds (which constitutes 8.3% of herbicide use on soy in 2012, which remains high single digits)

    This isn't nitpicking. You come to the debate with a fantasy of what agriculture is in your head. If I were to argue that the dipthong was a sound only adopted in pidgin languages which disappeared as soon as grammatical rules became more formal you'd probably have something to say about this, on this matter this is the level of wrongness at which you're operating.

    To accuse GMOers of not grappling with the hard stuff is monumentally bizarre given that you appear to have not even bothered to grapple with the spectacularly easy stuff in order to ground your arguments in reality, why should anyone, for even a second, presume you've given any more effort to the actual hard stuff?

    ReplyDelete
  5. Sorry, Ewan. I couldn't follow your argument at all.

    What I said was, " How many crops have engineered resistance to a selective herbicide? I suspect none. What percentage of selective herbicide is sprayed as compared to glyphosate? I suspect in the very low single digits, if that."

    As I understand it, herbicides can be selective (kill only some particular plant species) or non-selective (kill any plant species). You could rebut this argument by saying that while glyphosate was non-selective, some of the other pesticides you mention are selective. This would be surprising, since who would use a pesticide that would kill only some weeds when he could use one that would kill all of them, but it would at least be relevant. But you say nothing at all. Are you claiming atrozine, etc., are selective? If not, how is anything you say relevant to what I said?

    If you could spray any old herbicide on your crop and not damage, who would ever have gone to the vast trouble and expense of developing herbicide-resistant plants? Before HR plants, you had to spray pre-emergence. Now you can spray any time you see weeds. And put poison all over my future food, thank you very much. THAT in a nutshell is why I oppose GMOs.

    You should spare the personal abuse in your last two paragraphs until you are capable of putting together a coherent argument.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Reposting this, as either I screwed up (most likely) or the prior attempt got lost in moderation limbo. Also splitting in two as the HTML isn't being accepted due to character limitations.

      All the herbicides I mention are selective. How can one tell... because they don't kill the crop. (also http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/atrazine-ext.html clearly shows that atrazine is considered a selective herbicide, while http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/herb-growthreg/fatty-alcohol-monuron/metolachlor/herb-prof-metolachlor.html clearly shows that metolachlor is selective... etc etc)

      I'm not sure what there is that was hard to follow.

      "If you could spray any old herbicide on your crop and not damage, who would ever have gone to the vast trouble and expense of developing herbicide-resistant plants?"

      Nobody has made the claim you can spray "any old" herbicide though. There were whole groups of herbicides that could be used, often in unison to get complete coverage - over 200 million pounds of herbicide was applied to corn and soy prior to the advent of roundup ready crops, for instance (all of it clearly selective, given that it didn't kill the crop)

      Atrazine can absolutely be applied post emergence, as can cyanazine. Sure, much of the pre-glyphosate era control was done pre-emergence (as is much of the post glyphosate era..), but given that atrazine can persist in soil for up to 4 years (enough to damage oats 1 year after application), and that other herbicides used can also persist well into reproductive growth stage the whole pre/post distinction becomes, as far as I can tell, largely irrelevant and thus looks like a dodge rather than anything meaningful. Far more grace to be had in simply admitting that you completely misspoke and got your facts wrong than to persistently keep shifting what you meant.

      I'm not sure why you bring up herbicides being sprayed on your food. Regarding GM crops this simply won't happen - the spray periods are early season, during vegetative growth - there is no spraying after R stage (there would be little point in corn given that by reprotductive marurity the plant stands 8'+ tall, and in soy by R stage canopy closure is complete and any competing weeds are likely too established to be knocked down by glyphosate at rates allowed).

      The statement "Now you can spray any time you see weeds." is also incorrect - there are established windows where spraying is viable - for roundup ready 2 corn the maximum height the corn can be when spraying is 48", for RR2 soybean maximum stage is R2 (flowering, prior to pod appearance) - both regimes state that between 1 and 2 sprayings can be done with 44oz/A maximum in one spraying for soy and 64oz/A maximum in one season for soy.

      To break down where incoherence might have occured -

      You initially claim that 'Only GMO crops can be safely sprayed with pesticide'
      I call you on this.
      You shift the goalposts to 'herbicide'.
      I call you on this.
      You counter with 'What percentage of selective herbicide is sprayed as compared to glyphosate? I suspect in the very low single digits, if that.'

      I return figures on all herbicide use for soy and corn in the years pre and post GMOs. These figures clearly illustrate that your assertion of low single digit percentages (at present selective herbicides account for 69% of all herbicide use on corn, and 8.3% on soy, which while single digits, is hardly low single digits)
      You then attempt to move the goalposts again, claiming both selective vs non-selective as if it is meaningful, and also that post-emergence spraying is somehow only a GM thing (http://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/research/agronomy/RR709.pdf suggests otherwise)

      Delete
    2. (part the second of reposted reply)

      You also then suggest HR plants can be sprayed any time weeds are seen (which while not outright saying it at least suggests no control over quantity or number of times sprayed) which I show false (and the parenthetical to be false too) and that your food is not sprayed either with GM crops (here assuming that the beans and the kernels are what one is considering food - again this gets back to post and pre distinctions, but this is only really meaningful if the tissue is present and sprayed, because otherwise I fail to see why one wouldnt consider season long exposure of the roots (the major nutrient uptake tissue of a plant) as important as the leaves being sprayed.

      I'm perfectly happy to clarify anything else you think isn't coherent, but I still fail to see what there isn't coherent other than, perhaps, not magically anticipating the shifting of the goalposts multiple times rather than an honest admission that you don't understand herbicide application to crops in either an historical context, or in the context in which they are used today.

      Delete
  6. "Atrazine is a selective triazine herbicide used to control broadleaf and grassy weeds in corn, sorghum, sugarcane, pineapple, Christmas trees and other crops"

    http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/atrazine-ext.html

    "Atrazine can be used as a postemergence treatment, before corn reaches 12 inches in height, to control certain annual broadleaves."

    http://bulletin.ipm.illinois.edu/pastpest/articles/v977j.html

    Just grappling with the easy stuff for you...

    I hate to keep pointing out how you've jumped to conclusions wihtout really understanding the subject matter. Ewan is saying the same thing. We have both backed up this statement. It's not just personal attack. I'm very sorry if you take it that way. But, I answered both of your questions in about 30 seconds with the internet. I'm not sure why you wouldn't do the same, but it certainly appears as if you're making up your mind in a the absence of the appropriate evidence. And, you continue to indict people who HAVE done some hard work.

    I hope you don't take it as an insult, but it is a criticism of your point of view, it's basis, and the manner of presentation.

    ReplyDelete